Transcript: Breastfeeding Advice from Fellow Moms
Welcome back to another episode of Breastfeeding Talk: Milk, Motherhood, Mindset. I am your host, Jacqueline Kincer. And I apologize for a bit of a hiatus from the podcast. A few things one is you know life happens. So these episodes may not come to you regularly every week. And I'm okay with that. Hopefully you're okay with that. All right, if you can't tell I have some lingering congestion, I have had some serious allergy problems, and kind of got like a minor cold and it just isn't going away. So I didn't really want to record a podcast sounding on easily, but I'm going to do it anyways. And also I recently moved so there was just a lot going on with that. And even though the actual moving day is one day, if you've ever moved before, then you know, absolutely you've got to pack and unpack and all the things and one of my kids started a new school. And yeah, it's just been a lot of things.
So anyway, this is me, sort of telling you what's up in my life. And also just giving you permission to take a step back and put some things on hold that aren't absolutely necessary. Because that's just what life is like sometimes, especially when you're a parent, and especially when you go through some big life changes. So there you have it. But today's episode, I am excited to bring you I made a post on Instagram earlier this week. And if you're not following me on Instagram, I highly recommend that you do I share some awesome content over there. I've been making some super fun reels. And yeah, there's just some good stuff, sometimes some giveaways and contests, things like that. So head over to out holistic lactation on Instagram, if you want to follow me and keep up with things over there.
Excuse me, especially if you are missing some of these podcast episodes, because I definitely make an effort to post everyday over there on Instagram. But I made a post just for community advice from followers or anyone else who found that post that day. And it asked the question, if you could tell fellow breastfeeding moms one thing, what would it be? And I have to say that I was so very impressed by all of the responses, they were very aligned with kind of what my philosophy is, I suppose you could say and just the support that I've been giving mothers throughout the years, and I just thought wow, you all are such an eloquent group. And you really get it. And that was kind of the point of the post was because even though obviously, I've been a breastfeeding mom, myself, and I help breastfeeding moms all the time, I wanted to hear from you guys kind of your own appear advice, because I think it's really important.
You know, I don't want to just be some talking head professional who's telling people what to do. That's never my goal. Definitely not my goal. Even as a clinician, it's to work with you in partnership, to come up with solutions that are going to work for you and fit your life. So I am going to share with you the responses. And if you want to you're welcome to go over there and check out this post is from May 8 2021. So and you'll see it just kind of looks like a meme with a little sort of microphone on top. And that question if you could tell fellow breastfeeding moms one thing, what would it be? Excuse me? Oh my goodness. See, this is what I mean. This is why I don't want to record a podcast but that's okay. Because stuff happens. So one of the comments here was, trust your mom gut. If you feel like something is off with breastfeeding, then seek help and keep asking for it until you find someone who will support you and hear you. We need moms to be informed and empowered so they can make the right decision for them. Now she had a typo it was I forked and empowered and then she corrected that which was super cute. I could not agree more with this comment. I honestly feel like it is just everything. Yes, your mom gut.
You know, everybody has this intuition. And I do feel like that something special that happens through the process of pregnancy and birth in moms. And maybe it's hormones, maybe it's something else that we just don't know, that's really not quantifiable. But there is this instinct. And you will know if something is off. Don't let someone tell you it's not. I cannot tell you just even for myself, right? I would, I would go to the pediatrician with my son. And she was also a lactation consultant. And she would ask how breastfeeding is going, and I would say, Fine. It's going great. But I knew it wasn't. But I just didn't really know how to articulate anything. And she never really asked any deeper questions. And I had a client that I worked with yesterday, who said the same thing that she said breastfeeding is going great, even though her baby is colicky and screams all day long and swallows air and has a ton of gas, and ended up having a tongue tie. So it took her a couple months to realize, okay, maybe breastfeeding isn't fine. And that was kind of what happened with me too.
So trust your gut, you know, and it's never too late. You know, I definitely did an episode on that. I think it was episode four of the podcast, how it's never too late to get help. If it's two months in, if it's four months, and if it's two years and you really something is off, then go get that help and keep asking for it until you find someone who will support you and hear you. So you know, the saddest thing to me is when someone says, Well, I saw lactation consultants, and you know, they weren't very helpful, or they told me everything's fine. And I'm like, Yeah, but that's just that's just one person that doesn't represent what all lactation consultants might tell you, it's okay to get a second opinion or third opinion, if especially if your gut is still telling you something's off, maybe you need to see another kind of provider, it doesn't have to be a lactation consultant, maybe there's something else going on. But you know, don't just go with the first answer you're given, I guess, is what I would say this comment is sort of saying, so make sure you're heard. You know, I think that's the biggest thing, right? Your feelings, your experience, it should be validated, it should not be denied. If you are working with a care provider who's saying, Oh, it's just all in your head, or everything's fine.
And you're feeling like it's not that's gaslighting, move on Find someone else who will serve you and listen to you. So, and a lot of these comments are on the same lines. But here's another awesome comment that I loved. It says that baby may not lash right away, especially as circumstances around the birth were not positive. The breastfeeding class at hospital doesn't show reality. Seek out a lactation consultant as soon as you can. They are also your ally to mine was for my second birth when my baby had elevated bilirubin levels. And I don't want to sort of demonize, you know, the care you get in hospital or anything like that. But just most of the time, I do hear that it's nothing compared to what you might get in a private practice situation or once you leave the hospital unfortunately, that's just the majority of the case. Are there great hospitals out there with awesome classes? Yes, there are. But most breastfeeding classes, sadly, do just focus on the benefits of breastfeeding and sort of the basics and how to assuming that everything is going to go well. That's often not the case, though. Most births do have interventions that affect breastfeeding, whether it's something you know, like an induction or even just Pitocin to augment the labor, whether it's a really, really long labor or really, really fast labor, or you know, a number of things, right.
So it could be a C section, whatever, all of these things, and epidural, you know, those all impact breastfeeding. So to pretend like your baby will come out and breastfeed, and we'll just happen because that's what nature intends. While nature also didn't intend for you to have all these medical interventions during your birth. Now, thank goodness, we have those things because women used to die in childbirth all the time. So you know, I'm not saying that those things are bad, but we have to acknowledge that they do negatively impact breastfeeding. So yeah, taking a breastfeeding class and feeling like you've got it all down pat, if it's just going over the basics, kind of assuming everything will be hunky dory and whatever, then you may not be prepared. And it is okay. If your baby doesn't laugh right away. Now you do want to try and get them lashes as soon as possible. You want to get help with that. But even if they don't latch right away, it doesn't mean that they'll never latch. So I just love this. I love this comment, because it's just more of the reality and rawness of what it can look like sometimes, and just letting you guys know, it's not the end of the world.
So I love that this particular person got the support they needed. Here's another comment that I love. In fact, I pinned this comment because it's just so great. And it's here it goes. It says, nurse that newborn around the clock, even if they just quote unquote, ate nursing isn't about getting nutrition. It's about bonding, comfort and so much more. Oh, yes, yes. Nursing is like a maybe a quarter of it is about nutrition and the rest of it is about that bonding, comfort and so much more. And yeah, when they're newborns, they're going to go to the breast all The time people love to ask me how often should they be nursing and I'm like, they should probably just never be unattached from the boob, when they're newborn and newborn, by the way, is the first 28 days of life. So, yes, they should probably be on the move all the time, they should be held by you all the time, that's not abnormal.
What's abnormal is that we live in a culture and society that has trained new parents that their baby is going to sit in a swing, or sleep or sit in a swaddle, or just want to be held by everybody else, and be on some sort of feeding schedule, you cannot compare the rest of infancy to the early days of newborn hood, you just can't. And it's so frustrating to me that parents feel like they're doing something wrong. When they hold their baby, quote unquote, too much, or they let them nurse quote unquote, all the time. That's literally what you're supposed to be doing. And there's a couple reasons for that one for your baby, two for your milk production of three for your postpartum healing. That oxytocin release that happens every time you have a letdown or your BB latches is very, very, very healing to your mental health to your uterus to your breast tissue that's putting gorging gone through massive amounts of changes. So please, please, please put down the baby books for the first month, you don't need to know anything other than how to feed your baby and change your diaper and, you know, make sure they're sleeping safely and stuff like that. Okay, behavior stuff comes later, it does not come in the first month of life. So I love that comment, because it's a really, really great reminder. And again, this kind of comes back to that first one I shared about the mom gut. Like you know, you should be picking up your baby, you know, it's distressing to hear them cry.
Don't leave them there to cry, pick them up, hold them. It's it's what you're supposed to do. When your body feels a pull to respond to your baby's needs. Listen to that pole. Don't listen to the books, don't listen to the unsolicited advice that someone else may be giving you. Okay, so here's another awesome comments. They're all awesome, by the way, so I can't even rank any one of these higher than the other. But this one says don't give up before seeking help. If you don't want to stop chest slash breastfeeding. I almost did because of overproduction all the mess. And I'm so glad I didn't. Yes, I love this. Don't give up if you if you don't want to give up and you want to keep breastfeeding. But you're really struggling, then get help. It's out there. It's available. I do virtual appointments, lots of lactation consultants do. I'm sure there's people local to you if you prefer that. I mean, get the help you need. It's wonderful. And also Yes, overproduction can be really a big struggle, it can be a mess, it is not something to be glorified, I had it with my first child. It's very, very, very difficult. It can make breastfeeding very much a struggle for you and your baby.
So it's, you know, some moms will say, Oh, I wish I had an oversupply. And I'm like, Yeah, you know, if you haven't had one, that's easy to say, Everybody thinks they want an abundance of breast milk. And maybe you're happy with that. But a lot of moms are not it can be a huge struggle. So here's another excellent answer. It says don't give up. Even if it's hard fight for the answers you need. Don't settle for someone telling you quote, it's a wasted latch. I love that. I love that kind of along the lines of the first one, you know, fight for the answers you need. Don't sell for someone telling you it's a wasted latch. I can't say I've heard that specific phrase. But no action is a wasted latch unless it's really hurting you. But if it's really hurting you, you should be getting help with that. So just to reiterate, here's one that I thought is really cool because it's related to breastfeeding. And this is an awesome comment. It says squats hurts, but you build your butt. Think of pumping or nursing like a muscle that has to be built pumping is a sport. So I think she's really making an analogy here, which is that doing squats is great for your you know, your butt muscles.
And even though they hurt, it's something that you should do to build your core strength. Right. So if you're pumping or you're nursing, it is like a muscle that has to be built. Don't expect it just because your body is is primed and physiologically met to do something like this. Don't expect you to come out of the gate. Just a sing it all right. The first time you pump you make no drops of milk, you may get a couple drops of milk. It is a muscle that needs to be built. It is a sport you do kind of have to train for it. You have to train and become better and get that muscle memory going. So a fantastic comment. I love that, especially from a mom who pumps a lot. And here's another good one. This is a really great reminder and goes along with the mindset part of the podcast. A lot of this stuff does really but it says in the middle of a struggle try to focus on short-term goals instead of long-term, even if it's just getting through the next feed.
Yes, yes really do not think about, oh my goodness, how could I continue on for a year or whatever your maybe long-term goals that you've set for breastfeeding, just get through the next feeding, just put one foot in front of the other, make it a goal to keep breastfeeding one more day, one more feeding two more days, three more days, whatever it is, make those small goals because that actually does something to your brain. It actually Prime's your brain when it's it's sort of like having a checklist, right.
So instead of a big task, like you've got a big project to do, break that down into little steps. Because when you check those things off, your brain gets positive reinforcement for doing the work. And it no longer seems so hard, it no longer seems like such an uphill battle no longer seems like such a struggle. Because now your brain is saying we're doing it, we're doing it, we're doing it. And it's a reward system that gets activated. So say, You know what, I'm just going to go to the next feeding, I'm going to just, I'm just going to breastfeed one more time. And then you do it, and you're like, I could do one more time. And then you do that. And then you say I could do one more time and your, your brain just responds very positively. So instead of thinking, I don't know how I'm going to make it to next week, say I can make it through one more feeding.
And that's an absolute game changer. So thank you for that incredible comment, I'm actually I'm going to pin that one too. That's a great one. So here's another one. That is another awesome reminder, all little nuance things. But I love the way everybody put this such a special message from each and every person who commented, this one says there are good days and bad days. But whatever you do, do not give up. Don't ever give up. Never give up. I love that. I also want to say that if you've realized that breastfeeding just isn't for you anymore. It is okay to give up. I do give you permission to do that. But I think what she's trying to say is that there are good days and there are bad days, just because you have a bad day doesn't mean you should give up. If we did that with things in our life, then none of us would have jobs, none of us would have anything because we would just be giving up constantly. This is something I'm trying to teach my oldest child, my son, he's eight. And he is just you know, if he doesn't like something, he wants to quit it. And just because you don't like something doesn't mean that you shouldn't do it. So I think that's a really important reminder for everything in life. But especially breastfeeding. Breastfeeding is no different than anything else in your life. You know, you don't have to love breastfeeding. But you also have to love the job that you go to, but you do have to pay your bills. You do have to pay your taxes, you do have to feed yourself, right? You may not love doing those things, but you do them anyway.
And that's kind of like breastfeeding. So just another message there. This one short and sweet comments that I also like is pumping as an option and is still breastfeeding. Yes, it is pumping is breastfeeding. Most moms pump. It is rare that a mom never pumps it is great when you don't have to. And it is great when you do either way. So don't feel like you're left out of the conversation. When we talk about breastfeeding, you are very much a part of the conversation and you're very much a breastfeeding mom. This one sex comment I love because I talked about this feel like all the time, and it says it shouldn't hurt. If it does. There's a reason and a solution. Go So go see an ibclc Yeah, yep.
There's this idea that breastfeeding should hurt, especially in the beginning. And your nipples just have to toughen up or get used to it. No, that is not true. Some mild tenderness and a different sensation that might be uncomfortable, could be normal. But if you are experiencing something that you would describe as hurting, that is painful. If you have any damage or trauma to your nipple tissue, you definitely need to see an ibclc so please go get that help. Awesome comment. This is another great one that I love. Colostrum is milk and it's all your newborn needs, with the exception of any medical complications. Awesome. Love the disclaimer, thinking a lot like me, I always love to like, you know, thoroughly explain things and not over generalize. But yes, colostrum is milk. There's colostrum. And then there's what we call transitional milk, which is what you get between colostrum and then mature milk. So those are all milk. They're all breast milk. And it's exactly what your newborn needs. Like she said, except if your baby needs something else, but we all know that. Another comment that wasn't necessarily advice, but she said saved this thread. Thank you. My first paid comes in June. So that's awesome. I love that. Oh, one of my friends commented, her hilarious comment and I just have to share it because it's so funny. She said buy bitcoin. Love you Sarah, if you're listening.
This is also another really great comment. This mom says that it gets easier. Yes, it does. Breastfeeding will always be so hard. It won't always be a challenge if you've never done it before. Don't know why you would ever expect it to be easy. If you've never ridden a bike? Is it easy? No, if you've never swam a lap in a pool, is it easy? No, like, everything new, for the most part is hard. There's a learning curve. So I love that message that it gets easier. I'm going to pin that one too, because that's just great. Here's another awesome comment. And it says, find a great ibclc you can trust even if you think you don't need one. Yes, I cannot emphasize this enough, someone you can trust, that is the key 100% The key, because if you don't have trust in the provider, then this you're gonna have a hard time, you know, taking their advice implementing it, maybe it's not the right advice for you. So that's really, really key. And then yes, have a list at least one but if not more, have a list of ibclc is in even if you don't ever call them even if you don't ever email them or contact them.
At least have it available, right? Maybe you will never need a pelvic floor physical therapist, but in case you do, put one on your list, research them ahead of time so that you're not doing it the middle of the night when things are terrible. And you're really struggling and ready to give up. Right. So that's, that's such an awesome message. I do do love that. And I hope you guys aren't, aren't all commenting about getting an ibclc just to please me because I am one I don't think you are but like, I just do advocate for the profession. Because it's so important. And I know that not everyone, you know, needs one, and that's totally fine. But when you do need one, you know, please, please make use of us, we're here for you. Here's another comment that I thought was super cute. It says buy and use the haka. If you don't know what the haka is, it is a company that makes many products, but they do, they're best known for their silicone breast pump, I do recommend those a lot. It does not have to be haka brand, you can find other ones. But I do think there's works really well. And I even have a video on my YouTube channel and one on Instagram about a great way to use it to make it stay on and get extra suction. So I do recommend it. In fact, today's Wednesday, May 12.
But coming up this Friday at 1:30pm. Pacific time, I'm going to be going live on Hawkins Instagram page, talking about pumping, talking about milk supply and stuff like that. So if you want to be a part of that conversation, come over and head over to their Instagram account. I'm not affiliated with them or anything like that. But I do think it is a really, really great product. And I'm going to be talking about on Friday, why it's great to use why you shouldn't necessarily avoid using it in the early days. How you can overuse the product, though, and so I'll just be having a great conversation about that. But I do think for something that I think it's like $20, maybe less, it's a great product to have on hand. And if you use it great. If you don't, you know, there's many many uses for it, actually, besides extracting milk. So just wanted to share that. Here's another awesome comment a little longer. And it says, Don't give up on a bad day or think it's over because something changed nursing strike.
She has in parentheses, to keep trying for at least a week or get some help if it means a lot to you. But also stressing won't help you or your baby. So remember deep breathing, thinking gratitude and try not to talk in absolutes. I love that advice. Again, don't give up on a bad day. Someone else is reiterating that. And yeah, don't think it's over just because something changed like a nursing strike. Things change. Babies go through stuff, it doesn't mean it's the end of breastfeeding, you go through stuff, just because your milk supply drops doesn't mean it's time to lean and that it's drying up forever. Things can be reversed. And you know life happens, right? I'm just up speed because you have a bad day at work or you have a bad day at home or whatever. Like you could have a fight with your you know your spouse, it doesn't mean your marriage is over. Right. So just because something goes wrong with breastfeeding does not mean the breastfeeding is over. So I love that message.
And I like that she kind of gave a timeline. Try it keep trying for at least a week. I like that. That's probably that's probably fair, like, give it the old college try. And then if it's not working, get help. And then also just a reminder that stress doesn't help. Now it's easy to say that you're probably going to stress out but stress really isn't helpful. So let's get you unstressed, right? If something's not working, and you're trying really hard on your own to figure it out, and it's causing you more stress or anxiety, that is a sign from your brain telling you hey, you know what you need to get to the bottom of this and maybe you're not meant to do this all on your own. So love that message too. Here's another longer message which is great. It says it may take time and hard work but you will get there if on a bad day you feel the only option is to give up but feel it with a heavy heart and elements of discipline. pointment that's when you need to keep going. Seek the support and be patient with yourself and baby.
Once you're over the hump, the journey is amazing. I'm just going to leave that right there. So well said so thank you for that. I also love this one it says it's okay not to love it all the time. Most days. I love it. Some days I don't. Yup. Breastfeeding is not always lovable. It is okay, if you don't love breastfeeding, or you don't love it today, or this feeding or whatever. I didn't love it in the middle of the night when I was trying to get some sleep. But I did love it when my sweet baby was latched in my breast and drifted off to sleep peacefully, and I had nowhere to be. So great reminder, I absolutely love that comment. Here's another one too.
Don't let it mentally drain you like it did to me before giving up. If you really want it to work, invest in a lactation consultant and make sure you have the correct nipple flanges. Also nipple shield really gave us the opportunity to breastfeed we couldn't without them. This is really awesome. Because as much as ideally, we don't want to use things like a nipple shield or have these interventions. Sometimes we need them. Sometimes it's what we're supposed to use. Maybe it's temporary, maybe it's forever, hopefully not. But you know, it is what it is. And like she said, if you really want breastfeeding to work, then invest in a lactation consultant. You know, I see people invest in these newborn photos and you know, photoshoot every month for their baby and $600 Baby swings and the special bassinet and swaddle and all this stuff, you know, a lactation consultant investment sometimes cost less than those things.
And, you know, those things are not really necessary. So we have to think about like, what's what's most important here? Where are the priorities, where are the values, you know, if you can afford X y&z things for your baby that aren't really necessary, then you can afford a lactation consultant and you should make room for that in your budget, if it's something that really matters to you and is really important to you. So I do love I do love that. Here is a really cool comment that I'm going to talk about here. This one says antenatal colostrum harvesting after 37 weeks, got to practice hand expressing and really helped clear up initial milk gloves before the baby's arrival. I use frozen syringes of colostrum before my baby's vaccination appointments to boost your immune system. Also, a lot of expressing it a lot of hand expressing in the early weeks of breastfeeding helps with stimulation and more effective than a pump, because of the thicker liquid hand Express after every feed to really help with supply in the early days. So there's a lot to unpack in that comment. Some moms should or do better with harvesting that colostrum. After 37 weeks or 36 weeks, it can be easier.
If you are high risk for low milk production or potential that your baby may need to be supplemented or have issues after birth, then harvesting colostrum during your pregnancy at the very tail end, there may be a great idea for you, you're going to want to talk to an ibclc about that, and how to properly harvest it and store it. And yes, hand expressing it is the way to go. Pumps really struggle with the viscosity of colostrum. So hand expression is usually the best way to express that even once your baby has been born. Now, breastfeeding no matter what around vaccination appointments does help create a better antibody response to vaccines. So it does not have to be colostrum, you do not need to save up your baby's colostrum. To do that this mom chose to do that it's not, it's not recommended, it's not going to really make a difference. Just any breast milk. We'll we'll do fine there.
So I just wanted to clarify that. And yeah, hand expression after you pump or after breastfeeding helps to get out that last bit of more viscous milk or fatty milk. So I always do recommend if you're pumping to at least do hands on pumping where you're massaging or compressing the brush during pumping and definitely once you turn the pump off, just do a minute or two of hand expression once you're done to get those last drops of milk out and just further stimulate the breast. So those are some really great tips. Here's another great comment. This one says there are many good days with breastfeeding but also many bad days. Do the best you can make sure you take care of yourself mentally and physically just as you do for baby. The journey of breastfeeding is beautiful no matter how Rocky the path may get and you will learn so much along the way. Be easy on yourself and be proud of yourself no matter how long or short your breastfeeding journey may be. No comment that is really beautiful. So yeah. For wine listen to that again. That's really awesome. So thank you so much for that wisdom. And here's another one. For term. Well, babies, stop with the schedules, stop with the separation, stop with the pacifier, stop with the stuff. Simply be present, aware and accepting of who your baby is right now, today, and what they really need, they will tell you believe them. Beautiful, I'm like gonna tear up. Yes, that's yes.
I don't even know what to say to that. It's just really, really beautiful advice. Your baby will tell you what they need. If you're listening. So often I find moms are really focused on the future. You know, okay, I want them to gain weight. I want them to do this. What are what are they going to start rolling over? When are they going to start sleeping through the night? What are what are they? What are they? What are they, you're logging stuff in an app, you're on your phone while you're nursing. Like, let's just be present, slow down, look at your baby. This is called responsive parenting. So observe your baby with no bias, just observe them be be a blank slate be a sponge, and take in their body language, their eye contact, their their body touch against you the way that they're nursing, just take it all in, drink it up, and really absorb it and let your baby just be who they are, and then respond to that. So I cannot stress that enough. I think that's just a really, really important thing of just not even breastfeeding, but just parenting in general. So thank you for that. And this is the last comment here that I will share. This one I love to it says trust your gut if something doesn't seem or feel right, consult ibclc. In the hospital, two weeks out two months out nine months out, it's never too late. Also, second opinions on anything are well worth your time and energy.
Yes. So so many common themes. As you can see, I love this crowd-sourced advice. I think it's really amazing. And I just want to thank everybody who contributed I'm sure there will still be more comments rolling in, I think there was even another one today. So if you want, I'll link that post up in the show notes. So you can access that post directly, especially if you're listening to this podcast later out than when it was then when it was recorded. And I just want to say that really heed this advice. These are amazing things that other breastfeeding moms have shared. And I want to thank you all for your wonderful comments and for offering your support to other moms out there. I just was so blown away. I'm going to do another post like that periodically, maybe like once a quarter or something, just new followers new advice. People, you know, different places in their breastfeeding journeys may have something else to come back and share. Because it's really, really important that we support one another that we feel heard we feel understood by someone else who's walked along this path with us. Even though their journey may be different to ours, there's always some sort of similarity, there's always some peace of connection that we can find in another person's journey. So honestly, I just felt like this was really beautiful. I had to share it with you all. And I'm so thankful that you came and listened to this episode today.
So if you are new here, I would absolutely encourage you to subscribe to the podcast again, I'm not going to promise you that I'm gonna have a regular episode every week, but I am sure gonna try. So there's that for you guys. And I just really appreciate you being here. If you listen to this episode today, if you listen to this podcast regularly, just know that you're meant to be here. You're meant to be a part of this community, you're meant to listen to this, this information is for you. It is not for me, I am past my breastfeeding days. So I do not need to give myself advice on doing that. But I want to give you the tools you need to be successful on your journey. So thank you for listening and I will talk to you on the next episode.