Transcript: Breastfeeding Multiples
Jacqueline Kincer 0:03
Welcome back to Breastfeeding Talk: Milk, Motherhood, Mindset. I'm your host, Jacqueline Kincer. And on today's episode, I have a fantastic guest by the name of Lindsay Castiglioni. She is an ibclc and a mom of two sets of twins. And she's going to be sharing her experience with not just her own personal breastfeeding and lactation journey. But how she has supported mothers of multiples ever since then. And if you're not a mom to more than one baby at a time, so if you're not a mom of twins, triplets, or more, this episode is still super relevant. Because there's so many things that Lindsey shares that apply to breastfeeding any baby especially if you've ever had a preemie, or NICU baby, if you've ever exclusively pumped are so many nuggets of wisdom shared here that I can't wait for you to hear. So without further ado, let's hear from Lindsey. Welcome to the podcast. Lindsay. I'm so excited to chat to you today about all things multiples and breastfeeding. And you have just so much amazingness to share with us. And it's just an honor that you even reached out to be on the show. So thank you for being here today.
Lindsay Castiglione 1:59
Yeah, I'm really excited. I enjoy listening to your show. And I love all that evidence based information that you give out and all the interviews. So I was I was hoping to kind of be part of that. So I'm excited that you're having me. Yeah, yeah,
Jacqueline Kincer 2:17
absolutely. And I think, you know, for me, as a lactation consultant, I feel like I overlook a lot of multiples sort of information as well, because well, most people don't have more than one baby at once. And I think it's easy to sort of, kind of think of it like, well, it's just one baby times two, or three, or however many you're having at once. And there's not a whole lot else that we need to think about. But that's really not true. And I love what you said, when you had reached out to me that we've had a lot of great growth in our culture and society about supporting and normalizing breastfeeding, but we're still lacking resources for parents of multiples. So I'd love for you to just be share more about that with us and why this has become such a passion of yours and what we're kind of what we're missing in regards to supporting parents of multiples.
Lindsay Castiglione 3:16
Okay, well, let's see,
Jacqueline Kincer 3:17
we're, that's a tall order.
Lindsay Castiglione 3:21
I think that in general, you know, and this like, like you were saying and has come before away, but we are horrible as a culture is in the US that's supporting the postpartum mother. You know, there's, there's a lot of emphasis on breastfeeding about is how it's best and, you know, the most nutritionally complete food that we can give our babies and all that. But when it comes to like, supporting that, once the baby is here, you know, there's, it's, there's, we're lacking, for sure. And that, to me is compounded when you have more than one baby. You know, if a mom doesn't have support with one baby, be it with family or a community around her. You know, you can imagine how, how hard that would be with two babies without having that kind of support. And then we want to add in, you know, the wish to breastfeed, and it's just really tough for a lot of moms, you know, the, I think a lot of times feel like they don't have a whole lot of choices in the matter. And especially with how most, you know, multiples are born at low birth weights to begin with, or preterm before 37 weeks. And that in itself can bring some challenges when it comes to feeding. Yeah,
Jacqueline Kincer 4:43
I think that's huge. You know, my, my brother's wife, she, they're second babies. They were IVF twins. And you know, she went as long as she could until finally it was time to go in and have the C section and she had her Babies a few months before I had my first. And so I remember late my texts of you know, how does this whole breastfeeding thing work because you're doing it and you've got to have, obviously it wasn't her first go around, and she worked in healthcare. So I think she might have been a little more prepared than your average mom. But she would just, you know, really just kind of be honest with me about it and how hard it was. And she was like, you know, one of the babies gets formula because that one's really hungry, and the other doesn't, and I can give her just breast milk. And it was so fascinating to me, because I didn't have any really kind of expectations for any of it. I was just more curious. But it was interesting to see how there were things that I just wouldn't have expected that were so different about her breastfeeding her twins versus me breastfeeding my one baby, especially like you said with being early. So I think already, there's some challenges that start out. I thought about her in particular, because I imagine this is quite common in the multiples community that there's fertility treatments that lead to, you know, having multiples, and so there's already from the get go challenges, then you go through the pregnancy, which is harder than with one baby. So I'd love to kind of dive into that, actually. And just what are what are some of the things that present more challenges for having multiples, you know, even from conception?
Lindsay Castiglione 6:26
Oh, you kind of hit the nail on the head there with the infertility is one of the risk factors, right for breastfeeding automatically. And I don't think that's talked about I know, certainly no one ever spoke to me about that, when I was expecting either the sets of twins. It just wasn't really focused on I don't know if it's just because the assumption is that you're going to be using formula or supplementing or not breastfeeding at all with multiples or what whatever. But there are a lot of different endocrine disorders, mainly, that that can create infertility and can lead to infertility with women like PCOS, and just autoimmune disorders and some other things that make getting pregnant difficult, but then also for your body to make milk difficult. So it's not impossible by any means. But it definitely, it's something that needs to be strategized beforehand. Because if you're up against it, you know, with two crying babies, and you're trying to figure out why, you know, you're struggling to make enough milk for them. Kind of backtracking way back to that cause of infertility, it's probably not going to be at the top of your mind.
Jacqueline Kincer 7:42
Yes, yes. I think that's such a good point. I will never forget, one of my clients was so angry with her fertility doctor because she said, there were there were there was no discussion, like you said of those potential risks to you, you know, lactation from what it caused her fertility struggles. And then the moment she got pregnant, she's just, you know, handed off to the OB never, you know, to be heard from with that fertility doctor again. And so then it's this huge surprise when she can't make enough milk for the baby, which is so unfair, right? So she had all this anger about it, which makes sense, of course. And I love that you know so much about this, because you are not just a mom of multiples, but you're a mom of two sets of twins. So I would love for you to share more about your personal story and how you bought into this and what your experiences were
Lindsay Castiglione 8:37
like. Yeah, absolutely. I would love to tell you my wild, wild story. You know, I feel like maybe it's because when you're when you want to buy a red car, all of a sudden you see red cars everywhere. But I do feel like I know, a good amount of families that have more than one sets of multiples. But I forget, you know, to some others, it's still kind of shocking, like, how does that happen? You know, I do get that question a lot in the public. But, you know, relating back to the infertility story, that's, that's where our story started. My husband and I, we met in 2009. And we got married in 2009. He's in the Navy. And I met him and he was shortly going to be moving from New Hampshire to Hawaii in just a few months, and we kind of had this whirlwind romance. And he said, Come with me, and I, you know, thought that might be a nice idea. And what's the worst that could happen? I'm going to Hawaii and it would be amazing. And it was and it was scary. But so it was a it was a lot. So we moved to Hawaii. We tried to get pregnant to no avail. We kind of went through that normal person brushin of infertility start out with Clomid. Usually you work your way into IUI, which are in some nations and different medicines. And then we were transferred from Hawaii to upstate New York. And they had an amazing fertility clinic there with really great prices. And so we kind of jumped right into IVF. Knowing that that was really the best shot that we had. And the very first IVF cycle that we did, we got pregnant. So we went in for our first ultrasound. And now mind you, this is back in 2010. And they had let the doctor had let us make the decision on how many embryos we were transferring, we actually transferred three embryos. That is not the norm these days, a lot of times, you know, they're really focused on actually having single 10s. Most fertility clinics are not trying to have multiples, that's not their goal. So we had transferred three embryos, and I was considerably young, I was 29, I think at the time 20 or 29. And we went in for the first ultrasound, and we actually saw three yolk sacs. So two of them were in one main sack. So they were mono di twins, so they'd be identical. So that was one embryo that split on its own after they transferred it. And then the other would have been a fraternal triplet. But that baby didn't end up. We never saw heartbeat so it didn't progress normally, and then my body just reabsorbed it eventually. So here we were pregnant with identical twins, we were thrilled. At 16 weeks, we had a scary ultrasound where they actually couldn't find the separating membrane and between the two babies and jumped to the conclusion that they were moto Moto, so a moto chorionic moto amniotic, which means there's no separation between them at all. And it's very dangerous because of cord entanglement. So they referred us right to maternal fetal medicine doctor, which we got him within a few days. And they did this long ultrasound for hours of not saying anything to us, and it was very nerve wracking. And finally, they say, called us into the office and he said, they are not mano a mano. They're, they have a separation. But the reason that we can't see it is that a shrink wrapped to one of the babies, because he has no fluid, and the other baby had too much fluid. So this is twin to twin transfusion. That's what that's called. And there are treatments for it. It's mainly a fetal surgery, where they go in and do an ablation on the placenta while you're pregnant. It's scary, but it is pretty effective. And you know, there's still a decent mortality rate that's associated with any of the options that you have when you have 20 to 20 transfusion. So we were terrified that we had just spent our savings to get pregnant. And we thought we were gonna lose these babies. So we ended up getting referred to Children's Hospital Philadelphia, they went all through, they did literally an eight hour exam on us between like an echocardiogram and ultrasounds and a geneticist, all sorts of stuff. And at the end of the day, they said, You know what, your babies are actually in great shape, they are handling this really well. And unfortunately, we cannot do the surgery today, because you don't quite qualify, you have to get a little bit worse before you qualify for the surgery. So he sent us home. And that was, again, terrifying because I had wanted to just fix it, like, do the surgery. So you can you know, fix the problem. So we went home and we did twice a week monitoring for the rest of the pregnancy. And day by day, we got to viability that was a huge, you know, something to celebrate. And then we got to 30 weeks and all of a sudden, the baby who had had no fluids all of a sudden had too much. And he was in distress over that. And so they ended up delivering us at 30 weeks and three days emergency C section. And
Lindsay Castiglione 14:18
I was at like a crossroads with breastfeeding really because I had planned on breastfeeding. I had read mothering multiples, which is the the Lecce league endorsed, kind of how to breastfeed multiples. I had goals set, you know, I did a lot of the things that I tell my clients to do now. But then we delivered at 30 weeks and I go in to see my little babies in the NICU. You know, two and a half and three and a half pounds. And I thought there's no way there's no way I can breastfeed these babies. I mean, does your milk come in when you're that early? I had no idea really. And I also had this feeling fear that my body wasn't going to do what it was supposed to do, because it really hadn't up to that point. We had gone through the infertility, and it was not doing what I was supposed to do then. And then it hadn't carried my babies to term we had delivered early. And I think a lot of NICU parents even just singletons that deliver early have the same fear.
Jacqueline Kincer 15:22
Yeah, I think it's so true, right? You this whole time, you're you're trying to get your body to do the right thing. All the information and put you've received so far is told you that your body needs lots of extra help, or it cannot do it on its own. So why would breastfeeding be different? That makes sense? That is not flawed thinking that is exactly how our brain works. And that is the most logical place for your thought process to go. Yeah, oh, my goodness. Wow. Yeah, I didn't realize you had the experience of the twin to twin transfusion. That's, that is scary. That is, you know, the biggest risks of being pregnant with twins. So Oh, my goodness, wow, I thought I would share this really quick. I totally forgot about this. I mean, I know it in the back of my head. But I started out a twin, and then apparently ate the other one. No. Something happened. No, actually, my mom had quite a bit of bleeding is what she ended up telling me later. And so that one had passed and, and you know, just me left on the ultrasound. So this is really common, by the way, too. I mean, lots of singleton parents that you may see, like you said, the two yolk SACS or even, it could be a little bit further along and see too, and then all of a sudden, you know, one of them is gone. So thank you for sharing that. You know, that's very personal for you too. And, but I think it's important that people understand you know, what you've gone through because you're you're not alone. And whoever's listening is like, not alone in this either.
Lindsay Castiglione 16:44
No, definitely not. And, you know, we delivered early because the 2020 with multiples, but you're at risk for so many other complications. Even with a die die pregnancy, which is choose to placentas two sacks considered the least risk out of the multiples pregnancies, but it's still a tremendous amount of stress on your body, you know, to be able to carry full term as they, as they say. So we were in the NICU. And of course, they wanted me to pump right away, which I I had known that that would be the plan if I delivered early to pump immediately. And I think within an hour getting to the recovery room, I had the pump and I had asked for the lactation consultant to come in and to help. And honestly, she, the lactation consultant at the time was not fabulous, you know, and I think lots of women have had that experience in hospitals. I don't know if it was an off day or what it was. But one of the NICU nurses was actually the one who really made the difference for me. So she was a CLC. She wasn't an ibclc. But she really asked me, What do you want? Do you want to breastfeed these babies? Do you want to pump Do you like she just really took in my input, didn't try to like push anything on me or your talk me into anything? Or tell me what was right for my babies. She really met me where I was at. And she I said, Yes, I want to breastfeed down. But I don't even know if it's possible. And she said, it is possible. And if you want to do this, I can help you. We can do this together. It still makes me choke up. I got chills.
Jacqueline Kincer 18:34
Oh my goodness, she did her job. So well. This is what a lactation counselor are supposed to do. Oh my goodness, I feel like by the way, NICU nurses are much more in tune a lot of the times with those breastfeeding needs that sometimes the hospital lactation consultant, because they're really right there with the baby all the time, as long as they're in there. So I love that for you. I'm curious, by the way, how did you know ahead of time that you would need to start pumping right after birth or to ask for lactation consultant? How did you become aware that that was something you should do?
Lindsay Castiglione 19:08
That was all part of the mothering multiples book that ah
Jacqueline Kincer 19:11
J League endorsed and they I'm gonna link that up in the show notes for everybody so that if you are expecting multiples, you know, to read that book too.
Lindsay Castiglione 19:20
It's actually not in publication anymore, which
Jacqueline Kincer 19:22
is you know, I had to buy mine on eBay, but I am still going to link it up wherever I can find it. AB books, eBay, whatever. And then also he's put the name. She has a Facebook
Lindsay Castiglione 19:32
group where she has uploaded the chapters into the files so you can read it online. I find that it's a little bit easier to see things in print, but it's still a great resource. So yeah, absolutely. So I kind of got off and running with pumping. They were much too small at that point to put two breasts so that was what I did. I pumped around the clock and one of the things It says in mothering multiples is that you may hear well meaning nurses like on the postpartum floor, say, Don't worry about pumping overnight, you need to sleep you need to you need to heal, your body needs to recover. And it said, Don't listen to them. They mean well, you know, but if you want to bring in your supply for two babies, you have to jump around the clock. And so I knew beforehand that that was gonna be my plan. And I kept really good track of how much I was pumping every day like to the milliliter. And it really was so motivating for me to each day, see that it that amount increase and see my supply, come up and up and up. So within about three weeks, I was pumping about 50 to 55 ounces a day. So yes, so the supply definitely got brought in and the lactation consultant. I had gotten to see a different one at that point. And she worked with a lot of the NICU moms and she was really supportive. And she said, you know that's, that's good, we can kind of plateau out for a little bit because your babies, they were not eating anywhere near that amount. So they filled a deep freezer with milk. But eventually about 32 to 33 weeks, I was able to start putting them to breast. And just practicing in the beginning, it's such a process with preemies, they were still too fed with the tube down their nose into their bellies. And we would put them to breast while they were getting their feeding. So they would associate that they were latching and their bellies are getting full at the same time. And we delayed bottles. So this was kind of a controversial thing in the NICU that kind of got some nurses up in arms. But you know, sometimes you really have to advocate for you and for your babies. But we delayed bottles until like, a few days before we were discharged. One of the discharge requirements was that they had to take a certain amount of milliliters in a bottle. And that's pretty common amongst Nick us. But we I was there from about seven or 8am in the morning until about seven or 8am at night, and I would nurse them every feeding, we will do a weighted feed forward, weigh them, nurse them weigh them again. And then the NICU has this lovely mathematical formula where they calculate how many milliliters of baby needs of substance from their weight. So unfortunately, and this is one of the things that kind of gets me still to this day, but it doesn't, it's not a realistic number that most breastfeeding mothers would be able to be giving their baby per feeding. It's designed for really fast waking because that's what they want for babies in the NICU. So, you know, I thought that was the goal at the time. But now I realize that it was kind of an impossible, you know, kind of goal to meet for me. So anyway, we just kept working and we got closer and closer to that number as they grew. And then eventually they got discharged at 37 weeks. So we were there a total of seven weeks. And I honestly cried going home because I was going to miss Betsy. She was the nurse and helped me so much. Oh, but we kept in touch.
Lindsay Castiglione 23:18
And I got them home. And I started on the process of getting them to tandem feeding. And this is another thing that is kind of a misconception amongst multiples. Moms of multiples expecting they think that I have two bras, I have two babies. I'm going to tandem fetal time. Yep. Especially for first time moms. It's such a learned skill breastfeeding is that you really concentrating on one baby at a time in the beginning is really really important to get their latch established to make sure that they're taking in enough you know that they're getting enough milk to give you all those nice words diapers and to be meeting their waking milestones. When you have two babies and you're trying to kind of juggle that to tandem feed, it's really easy for you to lose focus on getting their bellies nice and full basically. So what I did was a system I would work up to exclusively tandem feeding, I would take a individual feeding and I would swap it to a tan and feeding. Let it go for a few days get my feet underneath me feel like I was confident doing that. And then I would take another individual feeding and swap it over for a tandem feeding. And eventually we got up to the point where I was tandem feeding probably about 90% of the time. The only supplement they got was Neo sure formula that was mixed with breast milk. So we fortified our breast milk because they they say preemies are lacking in the phosphorus and calcium and iron that they usually get towards that that third track semester towards the end of the pregnancy, they really get like a boost of that. So we did fortify, but other than that they just, I was able to make enough milk. And I, honestly, I worked hard, but it's locked to, you know, I mean, I was I was really blessed to be able to have the supply than I did.
Jacqueline Kincer 25:21
Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's no easy feat. And you're recovering from major surgery and all of the things that have happened, and now you're pumping around the clock initially in those early days. But I've heard a lot of moms say this. I'm curious if it was true for you, when your babies are in the NICU, and you can't hold them all the time and do all the things that you looked forward to with, you know, giving birth and having your babies they're not at home with you and whatnot? Did you feel like there was some sort of sense of, of like accomplishment or connection through pumping and providing that milk to them? Or did it feel really hard to do that are kind of a mixture?
Lindsay Castiglione 26:01
I think the former I definitely felt like that was my job. That was my main job. I knew that. That was the only I was the only person that could provide that for them. Because it is tough as a NICU mom to feel like the nurses and the doctors are the ones that know best for your baby, you know, as moms were supposed to know best for our baby, but not in that case, and not when they're tiny. And very early. Yeah. So I looked at pumping as like that was my main way of mothering them really, for a while, especially before I could hold them a lot and practice breastfeeding. So that was definitely a motivating factor for me to stay on that schedule.
Jacqueline Kincer 26:45
Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah, at least, you know, at least you're not sitting there with on your hands like, Well, what do I do? You know, my babies are in the hospital. I'm what sitting at home all day. No, you were there with them, which I think is so great. And it sounds like you had a really supportive NICU team. And I think too, you've touched on something really, really important, which is that it sounds like you did a lot of advocating for yourself. I think that we can be we can expect other people to know what we want or, or since breastfeeding is sort of a normative standard of feeding. You know, let's say you surprise you have a NICU baby, right, or, you know, it's unexpected or even if it is expected, and you just think well, someone's going to come help me with, you know, pumping or something, right? Well, maybe not unless you ask. So I think it's really important that you may not have that productive person like you did the nurse who was also a CLC that came to you and said, What do you want to do? Come come with that find the right person to speak to about that, because you got to avoid bottles for a long time, you got to put the babies to the breast. And they knew how to do it in the right way with the empty tube feedings while at the breast, all of those things really, really matter, and probably helped you succeed. How do you just let your babies be tube and bottle fed? And now you go home and you have non latching babies? What are the odds that you're going to stop exclusively pumping? Not great, because you didn't have a good foundation with breastfeeding. So you did a lot of work advocating yourself probably because you read the mothering multiples book, but I feel like maybe just a little bit of your personality to from what I can tell.
Lindsay Castiglione 28:23
Yeah, I actually was told by some of the more kind of, I don't want to stereotype but more old school nurses that if I would just give them bottles that we would probably be discharged, or they would be discharged a whole week earlier. Oh, you just that's really, really hard to hear as a parent, because you might Yeah, and myself inflicting, you know this on us as a family and on these babies. But I just stuck to my guns. And we actually made a sign that we put on their incubators that said, we are pleased no bottles were learning how to breastfeed because I would go home at night and the overnight nurses sometimes they would just assume that they would be having bottle feedings like when they were around 3536 weeks gestation, because pretty much all the other babies were getting bottles. And they kind of looked at me like why are you wanting them to be too fed? They're they're old enough, quote unquote, now to be able to have bottles. So that's why I said it was kind of a controversial thing in the NICU. It was definitely something I had to advocate for.
Jacqueline Kincer 29:33
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That makes sense. I mean, in every situation is different. Right? So some other babies might really need or benefit from bottles. So in your case, you were able to do this without that for a long time. Did your babies have pacifiers as well to help with getting those stock reflexes going? Yes. Yeah, yeah, I think so. Parents are on little surprised by that when that happens, you know, like, there's a lot of things that should have happened after birth, though you are not prepped for. And some families have the idea of, you know, not giving a pacifier right away. But when it comes to NICU babies actually good ideas, so
Lindsay Castiglione 30:13
absolutely does help them kind of form that association. So even when they're getting like the MG tube feeding, they would also be getting the pacifier. So that again, that whole connection between I'm sucking at my belly is being pulled. This must be you know what I'm supposed to be doing?
Jacqueline Kincer 30:30
Yeah, yeah. Well, you have this angel of a nurse, that just was so great for you. And then I think you said you stayed in touch with her. So tell us a little more about that.
Lindsay Castiglione 30:41
Yeah, so she would come and visit, you know, she came to their first birthday party and kept in touch and, and I always, always, in trying to tell her how much she did for me, you know, like how much I appreciate it, and how thankful I am. I mean, she truly changed my life. I never, ever thought I was going to be a lactation consultant. I was not on my mind when I was walking into the NICU, you know, with two tiny babies. So, it, it changed my life. And it's that's the inspiration behind what I do. Now. I want to be that, that source of support and understanding and meeting my clients where they're at, and do all those things that she gave to me. So there's a study out there that I love. I can't quote it exactly. But from my memory, it's if a mother is given to positive reinforcement, two forms of positive reinforcement from a medical caregiver or from her spouse as well, that she's 37 times more likely to be breastfeeding at six weeks postpartum. Hmm, wow. Within the first few weeks.
Jacqueline Kincer 31:57
That's amazing. If you find that send it to me, because I know I've heard something similar, but I didn't remember detail at all. So that's yeah, so powerful. Really? Yes, absolutely. So now you you've had this one set of twins, but they're not your only set of twins.
Lindsay Castiglione 32:17
No. So I. And I'll just back up to say real quick, because it'll make a minute but when i the whole year, so I breastfed Hayden and Connor that's there, the two boys that I have that surnames until they were I was latching on until they were about eight and a half months. And then they started going through a lot of nursing strikes. And now in hindsight, I see because we were still doing like two bottles a day, because I was so so focused on them getting the right amount of food, and that that is very common with Thank you parents. So I knew that, you know, I would put them to rest all day, but then I could kind of use that bottle or two bottles as an insurance policy to make sure they were eating enough. And I was not pay speeding. I was not following, you know, an ounce to an ounce and half an hour, which we know now is like pretty typical for breastfed babies. And they definitely had that bottle preference going. And I'm sure that that had a lot to do with the the nursing strikes. So I ended up switching to exclusively pumping for them. Eight and a half months old, which I still kind of boggles my mind. But I was so focused on getting to that goal. And my original goal was 12 months, but then they were so early. So I adjusted it for their prematurity. So I ended up pumping for them until 14 and a half months. And so that would have been a year after their original duty. When we immediately we started thinking about thinking about the next baby because we still lived in New York at the time next to that great or not next to but close to the great fertility clinic with the great prices, and we knew we'd be moving soon to Charlie was going to get transferred. That's my husband to a different base. So we said all right, well, we're gonna do this again, we're gonna go through IVF again, and we're gonna have one baby this time. And I really wanted to know what Having A Boring 40 week, full term singleton pregnancy was like, and you do hear moms and multiples, who have a single time after they're twins or triplets say, Oh, it was just so easy. And it was just wonderful experience. And so I wanted that I wanted that experience.
Jacqueline Kincer 34:38
Lindsay Castiglione 34:41
Right. So we went in for the embryo transfer and so they had taken my eggs and they take a sample from my husband and they create these embryos in the lab, and then they let them grow for a few days. And they can tell just by looking at the embryos, what kind of quality they are I think they're great quality, or subpar for. And that ultimately plays into the decision on how many embryos to transfer. So our goal was to only transfer one embryo. But we went in on transfer day, and they were not great quality at all. So they were behind in growth, they were like, just not not ideal. So the doctor said, you know, if you really wanted a good shot at success, I would I put two back, I put two embryos back, and we discussed it. And we ultimately decided that we would rather have another set of twins than for our family to be complete at that point. And we knew we wanted more children. So we put those two embryos back, and I was convinced that it didn't work because you know, you Google or people with infertility, especially they Google, the the grade of embryo and then what the success statistics are, do you play this game in your mind while you wait to see if it worked and everything and so we got a positive pregnancy test at home. And then we went in for a blood test and the HCG numbers, so that's when you know, you get your blood tests for pregnancy. And then there's a number associated with how much of that hormone that you have. And the the level that I had was almost exactly half of what it was with Hayden and Connor. So I was like, Yes, we did it. This is clearly indicating that we have one baby in there. So we went in for the ultrasound and they put the bond, you know where it goes? And they said, Well, how do you feel about having your second set of twins? And I was like a deer in the headlights? No, no, no, that can't be possible. We, you know, the embryos weren't that great, you know, and my husband's all excited. And I'm giving him like a nasty look, because I'm like, you know how much work this is, you know, I wish I had a different response or could tell you that I was like, you know, falling all over myself with joy. But I was terrified. I had just gone through a really traumatic ADAL whole experience the pregnancy, the NICU say everything. So we went home and to our 18 month old twins, so they were 18 month old age difference at that point. And when I when we got pregnant, and I was scared for a while it was not the best start to things. And eventually, when we kind of found out that they were a boy and a girl this time, that somehow and not it's not about the gender really, I would have been just as happy. I think ultimately if it was two boys, but that kind of helped me wrap my mind around it a little bit more and find a place of excitement, because up until that point, I had accepted it. But I was not like thrilled at the idea of having another. So we ended up moving at about 27 weeks in the pregnancy. And we went from New York to Pennsylvania. That was quite a big transition with two toddlers and then being pregnant with twins. But we kind of got settled in and when I hit 30 weeks, I kind of expected them to come in the day I was. That's what I knew, is the premature birth. And I was scared that that was going to happen again. And not only that, but we lived in a kind of rural area. And our closest hospital did not have a NICU they had like a special care nursery nursery. And the closest Nicky was about an hour and a half away. So I was really worried that we were going to end up with a second set in the NICU and then I was somehow going to have to divide myself between my toddlers at home. And these babies in the NICU. And my husband being in the Navy does not have any sort of leeway basically on time off. But things just kept rolling and they were really healthy. They never we never had any complications in the pregnancy, which is amazing. Kind of a Funny side note, I had kind of told everyone that I was going to formula feed. Oh, wow. I had known how much work breastfeeding was, you know, thinking of a premature birth and the whole NICU say and pumping around the clock and and all that went into breastfeeding them I said there's no way I can do that with two toddlers.
Lindsay Castiglione 39:38
But somehow I talked myself into trying Thank goodness. And so they were born at 38 weeks and two days and eight pounds two ounces and my daughter was 611 so giant babies in comparison. I always tell people it was night and day difference between the two pregnancies and birth experiences. So They got off to a really good start with breastfeeding. I just kept putting them to breast back to back to back to back. And tandem died when I could. I got them home, within they had no NICU stay at all, they were able to be discharged pretty much right away. And they were gaining well, but my daughter had a tongue tie and a lip tie and our pediatrician at the time, and I known enough at that point to check for it. And I mean, not, I wasn't an expert by any means. But I had a really good clue that there's something going on. And our pediatrician at the time was like, well, she's gaining, okay, she wasn't getting as fast as her brother. But he said, I'm not really pro revision. You know, there's not a whole lot of research out there that supports but it's going to make a big difference. And that was in one of those situations. And I know from listening to your podcasts that this comes up periodically, where the baby was gaining, okay, so it didn't really matter what I was feeling or the pain that I was in. And he said, Well, once she gets to be about two months or so her mouth will grow, she'll be bigger OB less of a of a complication. And thankfully, he was right with that. So we just kept going with the breastfeeding and they were able to never have a drop of formula. And I nursed them until they were 27 months old. And I never set out to be like extended breastfeeding, or anything like that. But it we got to a year and it was still working. And it was a really great experience, you know, to have that to compare to from the first experience. It was, like cathartic for, for me.
Jacqueline Kincer 41:50
Wow, yeah. You didn't have to end up exclusively pumping for any period of time, then? No, not at all. Yeah, that's awesome for somebody who started out, not even sure you wanted to breastfeed them.
Lindsay Castiglione 42:07
You know, it's kind of ironic. But it just goes to show though, that you never really know until you're in this situation, you kind of build it up to be this thing in your mind. And then it could totally go a different way. So being open to the possibilities. And that's something I really talk about a lot with my clients in my classes, is doing your research and having a plan and setting goals. And all of those things are so important. But ultimately, with multiples, we kind of have to roll with the punches. We see what we're working with and and go from there. Yeah,
Jacqueline Kincer 42:42
I think that's true for anything in life, but especially breastfeeding and even more, especially breastfeeding multiples. And, you know, I know that you said when you had your first set of twins, you had this experience with this NICU nurse, and that inspired you to become a lactation consultants. So how does that timeline of you becoming an ibclc play into your mothering experience with your children?
Lindsay Castiglione 43:10
So timeline wise, I looked it up on my own and did my own research and decided that I was going to be a CLC. So I looked up where the classes were, and there was one in our area will close to us. It was in Philly, and we were in central Pennsylvania at the time. And I actually weaned the second set of twins when I could go to that class. We are ready for anyway. But it was just an interesting, ironic transition. But it was a really nice way to wean with them. We kind of had like last nursing session and they waved goodbye to nursing they understood you know, they were old enough to understand that this was that was the last time and I'm still sad though I think meaning is full of emotion no matter when and where how it happens. Yes, I went to this class. And it was like a mom vacation. I went I stayed in a hotel by myself an ordered room service and went to classes all day. It was amazing. And I was you know, so really thankful to my husband for being so supportive, encouraging me to do that and take care of for kids that were two and under by himself at the time.
Jacqueline Kincer 44:30
That is huge, especially if that wasn't his regular daily experience.
Lindsay Castiglione 44:34
No, not at all. Yeah. So I became a CLC. And then I was kind of like, where do I go from here? I wasn't really ready to jump into like a work force situation with four little kids at home and like daycare costs for four kids would just be insane. So I really just did a lot of peer support and I really had started the peer support After the first set of twins came out of the NICU, they had kept my information and they would give it to different twin moms that were trying to breastfeed. And they would get all these emails from moms at the NICU and just kind of get them that peer support. So, so important. So we ended up moving again, from so we were Pennsylvania, we moved to South Carolina. We were there for only about six months, which was really unfortunate that it was such a quick transition there. But my husband was going through a another part of the training that the Navy has you do. And right about that time, I ended up seeing an advertisement on Facebook from a company called Twin love concierge. And they were looking for someone, another twin mom to teach just expecting twins classes. And they had an ibclc at the time that was doing their their breastfeeding twins classes online. But I started teaching with them. And eventually I ended up taking over the breastfeeding classes as well. And then I started doing consultations with families. And I just loved it, it was just so awesome to connect with 20 families all over the country, and to really feel like I can be that like encouraging voice of support for them. So we moved from there from South Carolina, we went to Connecticut, this is like five different states in nine years. Wow.
Jacqueline Kincer 46:35
Lindsay Castiglione 46:36
for kids. Yeah. So we got to Connecticut. And I was really focusing then on working toward being an ibclc. I knew that's what I wanted to do. It's a long road, especially for someone who does not have a nursing background. And I know you know that. Yes, thank you podcast, I was kind of like, well, where do I start, I need all of these hours, 1000 hours for anyone who doesn't know to sit for pathway one to sit for the exam. And through doing research, I figured out that if you worked at wet as a breastfeeding peer counselor that you could count those hours and you could get paid. But those jobs are very hard to find. They're in high demand. Especially because they they like to hire WIC moms, so they like to kind of advertise to them. Yeah, to begin with. But I applied for a job. And I was so fortunate to get this position. And so my kids at the time, see they were they were 446 and six. And let me tell you, I go into work every day was awesome. Not that I didn't love being a stay at home mom, you know, but it was just a whole new world to go to I had an office and I would see moms and get to talk about breastfeeding all day. It was just it was amazing. I loved it. So I was with them for almost about a year and a half, maybe a little bit more. And then we were transferred, again, from Connecticut to New York. And once we got to New York, and my focus was I was gonna really buckle down and get my health science classes out of the way that we need an order of exam. And then just finish up all the random hours that I may need as far as like the Online Education type stuff and sit for the exam and study. So that's what I did. And I ended up passing the exam on the first try. For anyone who's an aspiring ibclc they do not make that test easy. Man, the crazy questions and the pictures. And it's not the sort of thing where you just study and then walk in and get to kind of regurgitate the information that you've memorized? No at all.
Jacqueline Kincer 49:01
It is not that kind of exam, folks. I did have a I don't want to scare people either, though, I had a nurse ibclc that I had kind of, you know, done some hours with and whatnot. And she was like, You're gonna pass on exam, no problem. She was like, trust me, don't worry about it. And I was like, Okay. And of course, I studied really hard and all the things but I think I had that little voice in the back of my head the whole time. I was taking the exam that helps me stay more calm. So if you are well prepared, you will pass the exam on your first try. But you have to be well prepared. Yes. You know, it's not a test taking strategy kind of exam. You have to know your stuff. Yes. Which is good. That's what you want to board certification that be?
Lindsay Castiglione 49:50
Yes. Yeah. And it's as much as you try with the strategies and you get in the study groups and like everyone's trying to do that and you kind of make yourself crazy in the in the lead up to The exam. And I think all that energy
Jacqueline Kincer 50:02
could just be spent learning what you need to know, instead of trying to figure out if the question is tricking, you
Unknown Speaker 50:08
know, I know. But one of the unfortunate things, I guess, can be looked at a number of ways is the non disclosure, you know, so people who take the exam cannot then pass on information and have oh, there was a question on this question on that it's not, you're not able to discuss the exam questions. So that is kind of a barrier to having more effective studying. But in a way, it makes you pretty well rounded going into the exam, because you have to study like, a million topics. And then, you know, maybe only half or quarter of them are actually on the exam, but you still have all this knowledge that you built up, which is never a bad thing.
Jacqueline Kincer 50:48
That is so true. Yes. I think we, our exam is actually harder, in some ways. I have doctors, when they're like, really, you know, redoing their boards, right? And they're like, Yeah, we just get these, you know, you just go on this online thing and get this brain dump of all the questions. You know, someone goes and takes the exam, and then they just, you know, they've memorized the questions, and they just write them down, and then they sell them to you. And I was like, that they don't have that for ibclcs. It's all like, that's all you have to do. And I mean, of course, they're practicing doctors, they know their stuff. But you're like, dang, you guys get the easy way?
Unknown Speaker 51:21
Yeah, no, it was it was tricky, but definitely well earned. For anyone who's an ibclc. Out there is. You deserve?
Jacqueline Kincer 51:31
Yes, yes, well, and you too, I love that you have this unique experience that brought you into this profession. And that you get to utilize that along with, you know, pairing that with all this amazing professional and clinical knowledge. Because then you're able to really meet the client, where they're at, or when you're providing this education to them, you really know the questions, they're going to have the thoughts that are going to be going through their head, the struggles they're going to be experiencing, not because you learned it from a textbook, but because you lived it too. And it's very, very valuable to have that experience.
Unknown Speaker 52:10
Absolutely. And there's lots of ibclcs out there that I've worked with twins have good experience working with multiples, but you know, there aren't a ton of them, that necessarily might drew it, like you're saying that walked through, like the trials and the tribulations and all the emotions that go with it. But there is kind of a fine line. Because for anyone who has an ibclc that went through breastfeeding experience, you do have to be really careful not to kind of blur that line between unpacking whatever you may have gone through, and then also, you know, your clients experience. So I am very, very cognizant of keeping that that boundary there. Yes,
Jacqueline Kincer 52:54
it's very important for sure, as as much as you know, have clients to, you know, love to ask me about, you know, did your babies have ties or something? And I'm like, Yes. And I've done podcast episodes about them. So go, Listen, because it's not it's different experience than what that person is having. Right. So if I do feel like there's something helpful that I can share that I've gone through personally, I do feel like that helps a lot of moms, like you said that peer support, too. So we sprinkle that in every time we work with someone because, you know, maybe we know just that thing need to hear or let them know they're not alone or whatever it is so so important to be able to do that too. And where they can feel seen and heard. And I know that you're obviously really good at doing that. And sounds like you just kind of fell into your lap right to this profession find you because these Nikki, moms were emailing you and it just, you were already doing the work. You just didn't have the certification or the exam or all those things, right?
Unknown Speaker 53:53
Absolutely. It didn't. I never envisioned myself going down this road, but I will say I do my Bachelor's degrees in social work, which definitely helps with the whole this whole profession definitely is useful.
Jacqueline Kincer 54:09
Yes, yeah. So now how do you how do you work with families now because you transition from WIC and then you've sat for your exam? So where are you at now with things
Unknown Speaker 54:24
so twin that concierge actually ended up closing and I effectively didn't buy the business outright but I took over a lot of the aspects of the business and so I now all their social media is now full hearts collaborative, which is the name of my company. And I own all the rights the curriculum and and all that so now under my business name, I teach classes for multiples, I do that. That's a lot of what I do. And then I also do a lot of work. All consultations because, you know, there's only so many multiple families that are super local to me that I could just try it out and meet for the first appointment. It does happen. Absolutely. But I just love telehealth, I just love that COVID has opened that door for us and lactation, like I don't feel like it would be nearly what it is now. And all the realizations we made about how effective we can be over video. So I do help a lot of families, a lot of times with the NICU transition, so many of them are having the queue time and then going from the NICU to home, you're kind of you kind of get home, you're like, wow, what, you know, before I had someone kind of looking over me I had, I could ask the questions to someone 24/7 When I was there. And now I am home and trying to figure this out. So I do a lot of transition, work with them about like strategizing and kind of coming up with a plan on how if their goal is to exclusively tandem feed how we can get from in the NICU, we're triple feeding. For anyone who doesn't know, that's when you're putting a baby to breast, you're also pumping and then the baby is also getting a supplement of some sort. That is huge in the NICU. And none of us want parents to be doing that long term. It is like it's exhausting to say the least. So getting up moving away from that is what I do a lot with parents and trying to get them to kind of relax into breastfeeding, because it's just, it's so hard, especially for multiples when you're a new parent. Yeah, yeah,
Jacqueline Kincer 56:40
absolutely. I triple feeding is the worst, even if you're a singleton. So to feed them to pieces, it's kind of more than triple, actually. But yeah, I love that you mentioned telehealth as well, especially, it makes so much sense for parents who have babies in the NICU because they're either going to spend their time at the NICU. And then if you aren't associate with the hospital, you can't just come in there and start helping them there. And then if they're home, they're home in the evening, and you're probably not going to see them then. So telehealth makes a lot of really great sense in so many ways. But I think people Yes, I agree, people now understand that we can help them just as much through these virtual visits as we can in person, no, we can't do a weighted feed every time but your babies in the NICU, they're doing that for you. So we don't need to do that portion. We're just you know, we're these allied health care providers, they get to help along with everything else that's going on. So we often don't have a need to do certain things that someone else if that needs to be done, you're getting that done in person somewhere else anyway. So I like to reassure parents of that, and I love that you teach classes, because one of the best things that you can do is, you know, it's usually no surprise that you're having multiples. So you're probably like I said, gonna be using Google a lot. And you probably already have in terms of pregnancy, but if you can do more to educate yourself before the twins are here, or triplets, or whatever the case may be, then I think it's just even better right to get that education, like you said, and there's a book, but it's out of print. And also, it's out of print it because it's older, and it's not super up to date, and things have changed the hospital's work, change COVID has changed things. So staying really on top of all that super important.
Unknown Speaker 58:32
Yeah. And just having that class, I know, when you go to do something you're doing hands on, that's where a lot of our like cemented information is with learning. So yes, you're going to take this class while you're pregnant. And then you might forget a few things by the time you're actually trying to nurse these babies. But it's definitely the best start that you can give yourself. And it's going to give you some solid expectations. So that's another thing is, I think, for any new parent, they may think breastfeeding is going to be a certain way, sometimes they underestimate the amount of work or, you know, any struggles that they might have, they kind of assume that it's natural, it's gonna work just the way it's supposed to. They're gonna see how it goes, I get that one a lot. But if they have solid expectations, and they know going into it, that it's going to be a decent amount of work. You know, there's, there's some things that can go wrong, but there's so much help and support out there to meet those needs that they may have. I talk a lot about an investment in time theory that I have. So we know like the first four to six weeks i i think anyway, are the toughest of breastfeeding. That's really when you're kind of walking through any of those big challenges. They're usually apparent right up front. Your baby's tiny, so any sort of growth is much more important, you know? They're before weaseled versus a robust nine month old baby, it's just a different caliber of concern and, and whatnot. So those first four to six weeks, especially when you're talking about two babies that you're trying to feed, it is grueling. It's, it's hard, you know, there's nothing sunshine and rainbows about it. But if you can push through that timeframe and get beyond that, it's so much easier than trying to formula feed twins, and to try to bought you to wash all those bottles that take you about an hour a day to wash and bottles to bring to formula feed to babies. So, it may be tempting in the beginning to think like, oh, it would be so, so nice to know that I could give my baby a bottle of formula, and I'd have XYZ amount of hours, you know, because they know that formulas harder to jazz, so they have longer before the next feeding. It would be nice, but if you can just invest this time, it's gonna pay off so much, you know, down the road. So just giving parents that framework before they deliver, I really think helps set them up for success so much more.
Jacqueline Kincer 1:01:13
So that is true for you know, one, baby 10 babies, I mean, so true. I think it is just sometimes when you're struggling or things are hard in those early days, then it's easy for your brain to assume that it will always be this way. And so you want the easy out and easy out would be to stop, right Stop what you're doing exclusively POM or switch to formula or whatever it might be. But like you said, it's really that perseverance. And it's kind of like a, like, my two kids are very different personalities. For instance, my five year old, she'll just keep trying, she can tell when she, you know, didn't get something the way she wanted it to or wasn't quite right, and social just attempted over and over again. And she takes all of those moments where she wasn't able to do the thing correctly. And she takes it as just information. She's not hard on herself. And then she just changes what she does, and then perfects. And that's really what we're supposed to do as humans. But I think when you're faced with, you know, perhaps trauma of things during the pregnancy in the NICU stay and births and all of that. Our resilience to that is kind of worn down. And so that one little, you know, could be the little straw that broke the camel's back, right? You know, you have a baby that you know, won't latch or isn't gaining weight or whatever. And you're like, Oh, well, I guess I just can't do this. And it's, it's so kind of, I don't wanna say it's easy to go there. But you can see why it happens, right? A lot of the time, it's not because someone is lazy or not committed or whatever. That's not what it is. But if you have those expectations, like you said, then you can just realize that, you know, yes, maybe it's not going great now, but doesn't mean it'll always be that way. And just that perseverance is so so important.
Unknown Speaker 1:03:09
Yes, absolutely. And I also talk a lot about if you have to use formula, we have fallen supplementation part of this class, because I'm not going to pretend that it doesn't happen. I mean, especially with animals, we were looking at a very decent rate of formula and quickly to usually, if they don't go to the NICU, they're still likely to have some formula. But if they go to the NICU, and they are, say 3536 weeks, they want to start them right away on the formula. Whereas we know our bodies aren't making anything but colostrum at the time. And that's what they're supposed to be getting. But that's not effectively to things with the NICU. So it's likely that they are going to be getting either donor milk that would obviously be the preference or formula in the meantime. But there are certainly ways to supplement while protecting your supply at the same time. And that's definitely with multiples with it as a singleton too. But that's definitely one of my biggest focuses because we need a lot of milk to feed to babies, and anything that disrupts that along the way, can be a pretty big deal. So I talked about cut feeding formula, trying to keep that formula to a minimum, but also being so thankful that we live in a place that we can access formula and clean water and and all the other things that go into formula feeding and just to be kind to themselves. And any amount of breast milk is an amazing gift for their baby, even if they are pumping two ounces a day. You know, sometimes parents don't know that, that they they think that it's all or nothing, you know, and if they can't pump 60 ounces a day to feed their twins and then what's the point? You know, it's it's a big time can Meant to invest if you're only getting a little bit of milk, but is still such an amazing thing for your babies.
Jacqueline Kincer 1:05:07
Yes, yes. And, and any mad at medically fragile baby, especially a baby that's been, you know born very early human milk could literally make the difference between life or death. That is why donor milk is available and NICUs. And much harder to get outside of that, because it can be really, really critical for many babies. So we're always trying to advocate for that not because we're, you know, just loved breastfeeding. It's because it makes such a difference, they didn't get to finish that in utero growth and development. So they've got to do it in the outside world and getting those stem cells getting those antibodies getting, you know, all of those other bioactive factors of breast milk is is really, really important for them. So, and also, when they're little two ounces, I know they're trying to, you know, get the babies to grow and whatnot. But that's a lot for a little baby, but it's not, you know, born full size. So I think that's just like you said, it's such a gift to be able to give any amount to a baby that's going through some special circumstances.
Unknown Speaker 1:06:16
Parents of multiples are also at a much higher risk for postpartum depression and anxiety. Actually, the most recent study I read said it was 43% More likely with multiples.
Jacqueline Kincer 1:06:27
Unknown Speaker 1:06:28
So that's a huge thing as well. And something that needs to be taken into account. And we need to make sure that we are supporting those parents. So if that means they need to supplement or feed in a different way. That's what has to happen. And that's okay. And they need to be given. It's almost like they need to be given permission to still, you know, feel like they're great parents, because they are, you know, so that's a tough a tough one, too.
Jacqueline Kincer 1:07:02
Yeah, I'm curious what you see in in the families that you work with? How common is it that someone is not making enough breast milk to completely support their multiples? Like, how common Do you see it that they, you know, really do need to or for supplementing is best for them?
Unknown Speaker 1:07:23
Unfortunately, and a couple things kind of play into that. I think that birth, the whole situation around the birth, so even full term, babies are close to term. When deliveries are tough, and sometimes we're looking at like, you know, lots of medications, or hemorrhaging, or some other not fun things to think about to happen. And that can unfortunately, play into the beginning of breastfeeding, whether it be your supply, or even just not being able to put the babies to breast for a certain amount of time, because I see that somewhat frequently, too, is that the babies are taken to the NICU or if mom is medically unstable herself. But first, you know, we're not looking to get a breast pump in one hour. My situation, I was lucky enough to be very stable and had all those things in my corner. But not everyone is. And so any of those disruptions early on can be really tricky when it comes to maintaining and building supply, as you know, the further along you go, and then also having preterm babies who may not be super energetic and effective at the breast. So if they're not emptying the breasts really well, that's gonna also not be the best for bringing in that really healthy supply that we might need to feed those babies not just now, but months from now, when we need many, many ounces a day in order to feed them. So it is somewhat common, you know, for us to see babies that need some sort of supplementation. But there's lots of tricks, thankfully, that we that we use lots of pumping, in addition to breastfeeding, which is not the most fun thing in the world, but it's pretty effective. Yes,
Jacqueline Kincer 1:09:10
yeah, absolutely. And I always just love to share the realities. But I also think it's important for people to really hear your story so inspiring of how you were able to bring in that full supply and then your second set of twins didn't have a drop off formula. So it is possible. And I think the take home message that I'm hearing from you is if you're really well prepared, and you know how to access the right support afterwards. You know, aside from any medical issues that might complicate things and prevent you from doing this. You can breastfeed your twins till they're two or longer and I just think that's such a great inspiration. Because even if that isn't how it goes for everybody. It's always nice to know that it's possible for someone
Unknown Speaker 1:09:59
absolutely i i wish that when I was expecting both sets really that I had heard more stories about how it is possible. And someone can have good results doing this. So hopefully my story is reassuring to anyone who may be expecting that. It's definitely it's possible and just preparing and doing what you can, even if things don't work out exactly the way that you had hoped, or their ideal situation. You're just doing amazing things as a parent, and that needs to be celebrated too.
Jacqueline Kincer 1:10:37
Yes, he has Lindsey right on, I honestly couldn't agree more. And I love that this is something that you specialize in. So if anybody wants to get in touch with Lindsay, I will link up all of her social media and contact information in the show notes if you're interested in taking one of her classes, or anything like that. Also find as many stable links for the very footstool as quick as I can and share that and that Facebook group too. And any other things that we find relevant. So I love to fill up the show notes, because sometimes I just direct people to it, like, let's say, have a premium consultation with someone who's expecting multiples, and I can go through everything individually with them. But I'll be like, You know what, just listen to this episode with Lindsey, because I think you'll get a lot out of it. And always these personal stories. Just I find our word medicine for a lot of us out there, and I am inspired by you. I don't plan on having any more babies. So I'm not gonna potentially have multiples one day, but I feel like I've learned a lot just from chatting with you. That's going to help me and supporting more families of multiples. So thank you for sharing all of this with us.
Unknown Speaker 1:11:50
Oh, well, you're more than welcome. It really it's an honor. You know, like I said, I listened to your podcast all the time. I am huge on putting those earbuds in while I'm cooking or cleaning or doing anything. And so I love listening. And when I reached, when I reached out to you, I was like, oh, maybe she might want to talk to me. I have some fun stuff to share. And so this has really been fun to kind of tell my whole crazy story. And I really appreciate you having me on. Yeah, absolutely.
Jacqueline Kincer 1:12:21
And it's been such an honor to having on Lindsay and I'm sure we'll keep in touch and for everyone listening, go go seriously, go check her out on social media, because even if you're a parent of a singleton of just one baby that you're breastfeeding right now, there's still so much that applies. And I think you'll get some great information on that as well. So thank you.