Transcript: D-MER: When Your Letdown Lets You Down
Welcome back to The Breastfeeding Talk Podcast. I'm your host, Jacqueline Kincer. And today we talk about a topic that is not talked about as much as it should be. And it's actually really rare. So that's probably why. And it affects a fair amount of moms, they're often looking for information on this. And so this episode is for you if this is something that you think might be affecting you. And it's also something that a lot of moms think they have, but they don't actually have. So we're gonna be clearing up the differences and ways to know that.
But before we dive in, I wanted to just make a couple of announcements. Thank you for all of the new subscribers to the show. By the way, if you're loving breastfeeding talk, I would absolutely appreciate you leaving a review. Those reviews help our podcasts get found and discovered by moms who are looking for this information in these episodes. So thank you, for everyone who's already left a review, I appreciate you so much. Also, we are looking at probably just being a few weeks away from releasing our lactation flow formula. So that's our newest supplement. That one is for clogged ducts and mastitis so it does not do the same thing that our advanced lactation formula does.
So it's complimentary. And it's also a completely different product. And so you can take it as a prevention for keeping your milk ducts nice and free and clear. If you're worried about that. It's an excellent, excellent alternative without the side effects to lecithin, which is something that a lot of moms will take. So it helps improve milk flow helps calm the inflammation in the breast. And then also has a probiotic that has specifically been studied to not only prevent but also treats mastitis. So it's an excellent product, you can ramp up the dosage if you're in a more acute situation like you currently have a clog or mastitis. And this has really been developed again, just like the advanced lactation formula after years of working with patients and clients and families and seeing what works and what doesn't. And reviewing the evidence. And the really cool thing about this product is that it was already in the works probably since last year, at least maybe even a little bit longer. And we already had the formulation figured out pretty much. But then the Academy of Breastfeeding medicine updated their mastitis protocol earlier this year, just about two or three months ago. And all of the things they included in there, the ingredients and our products were things that they recommended. So this product is unique.
There is truly nothing else like it on the market, there is not a blend like this on the market. There is no alternative to lecithin on the market, like what we're doing. And so yeah, it's it's really cool. I'm super excited. So it'll be on Amazon, it'll be on our website, we're actually going through a process of redoing our entire website and shop and it's going to be super fancy and great. I was DIY that myself before. If you guys don't know, I've always built all my own websites. I've built everything you see online, pretty much. So if you think it looks great, thank you. But I am learning that as time goes on that I cannot spend my precious hours and days necessarily niggling with every little thing on my website. And that that's not a great use of my time, it does not allow me to make time to record awesome episodes like this, or actually directly help breastfeeding families, or do some of the other things that I need to be doing. And it often takes away time from my family. So I'm working with a really awesome marketing agency right now who's going to be rebuilding my website, making it far more functional, faster, and really just doing some work to fix the SEO and things like that. So that if you Google something that we you know, have a blog post about a podcast episode about a product for a service for, you're more likely to find it. So anyway, that's an exciting little business update. But I'm super excited for the lactation flow formula because like I said, there's nothing else at all like it. It's an incredible product, just like the advanced lactation formula. The dose is important, right? And so you've got to make sure you're taking the right amounts of things in order to have that proper therapeutic effect. So you can take it in combination with the advanced citation formula. Again, they're totally different ingredients. They're complementary. I would say I suspect that most people that take the lactation flow formula are also not struggling with it.
Well milk supply. So they probably don't need the advanced lactation formula. But either way that will be announced as soon as it's available. And right now we actually have a little waitlist on our website. So I will link that up in the show notes. If you want to be the first to know when the product is available for sale, then you know, and where you can get it first, because I guarantee you, it'll be ready at, you know, probably our warehouse and our website sooner than it will be on Amazon, they just take a while to receive things. So if you want to be the first to know when it's available, head to that link in our show notes and get on the waitlist and we will email you as soon as it's ready. So what am I talking about? In today's episode, I am talking about none other than the dysphoric milk injection reflex, also known as D-MERer. So that's D hyphen, M er, and the milk ejection reflex is the letdown. dysphoric is well, you know, not so great. Right? So it actually is a condition condition. Like I said, it's super rare. It affects you know, lactating moms, and it's characterized by this really abrupt sensation of negative emotions, just kind of out of the blue. It's not subtle, and it's not gradual, it's pretty abrupt. And these come on immediately, usually right before the letdown happens. And then it lasts for a few minutes, and then goes away.
So it's usually most intense with that first let down at the pumping session or the nursing session. And then subsequent letdowns, you know, may not have any sort of dysphoria at all, or it's very, very muted. And so I want to be really clear that this is a physiological response to milk release. It is based on what's happening chemically in the body, it is not a psychological response. So this is not associated with postpartum depression or anxiety, or any other mental illness or mood disorder, it is not a mental illness or mood disorder, okay? Again, it's something that comes on quite suddenly, right before the lockdown happens. And then leaves within a matter of seconds, or sometimes a few minutes. So it does not last the entire breastfeeding session. It doesn't come on, you know, right after you've nursed nothing like that. It's not nausea. Also, some women experience nausea with their letdowns. In that case, it's probably just that you might need to be eating a little bit more food, you probably have an empty stomach and you're more sensitive to the hormones involved in letdown in lactation. So it's not any other type of physical symptom. It's not a rash. It's not, you know, again, it's not baby blues, it's not depression, it's not any of that like you're otherwise in a totally normal state of mind. And then all of a sudden, you're like, Whoa, I just feel like absolute garbage, and then that feeling goes away. It's not a dislike of breastfeeding.
Also, it's not nipple pain, it doesn't cause any physical sensation at the breast. So nipple pain, breast pain, none of that. It's not. It's not nursing aversion. Although nursing aversion does have some similarities, and I don't mean breast aversion, right. So breast aversion is when the baby rejects the breast nursing aversion is where you have this sensation that you just want to get the baby off the breast as soon as possible, not because breastfeeding is painful. But this typically happens when you're nursing a child older than a year old. It often happens when you're pregnant, and you're also nursing. So that's a completely different thing. But that's also not D-MER. And it's not sadness, right? That's not really, that's not really the sensation that moms would describe it as. So it's, I mean, it can't be sad. I don't want to say that. It's just, it's just the opposite of euphoria. Right? Dysphoria is the opposite of euphoria. So being incredibly happy and content and just feeling really good. It's the exact opposite of that. And it's noticeable. Like, if you have D-MER you know, you have D-MER it's kind of like when people go, how do I know if I have D-MER? And I'm, like, you know, like, it's pretty obvious. It's a slap in the face of a sudden shift in your mood. And then it goes away and you're just back to normal. And you're like, What is going on with me? You know, you have D-MER? It's kind of like asking, am I in labor? You're googling that.
Right? If you were like a first time mom, how many of us Googled, am I in labor? You know, when your labor girlfriend like, you know, okay, it's so yeah, D-MER is is again, pretty obvious, right? It's really, you know, it can it can be described, this is so subjective in terms of the way that moms can describe it. It can be really just an unpleasant mood. It can be an uncomfortable mood, it can be sadness, it can be sudden sensation of depression. It can feel like sudden anxiety or irritability. IE, or even restlessness. So, you know, think of it like this, the milk ejection reflex is a reflex. D-MERer is also a reflex and it's controlled by hormones. So it's not something that you can just mentally overcome. You can't like talk yourself out of it, you can't meditate your way out of it. It's it's pretty obvious. And you know, this is something I will say breastfeeding research is, you know, absolutely underfunded. Unfortunately, it's, it's one of those areas of science that just needs a lot more attention. And I'm a huge proponent of it getting more funding and more research, because you can't have the Surgeon General of the United States or the world health organization or whatever, saying, you know, hey, you know, let's, let's increase the breastfeeding rates. And let's do more to support breastfeeding.
But you're not actively like putting money out there and saying, Hey, we want people to study X y&z about breastfeeding why moms don't make it to a year, let alone two years side rant. But Mer is basically, as far as we know, there's this immediate drop in dopamine that occurs whenever you have a letdown. So when a mother is experiencing D-MERer and she has a letdown, and that dopamine falls in a way that it shouldn't, that can cause those negative feelings. And then it just goes back to normal. So I guess I want to clarify milk release from the breast. It's not caused by dopamine, it's actually caused by oxytocin rising. And oxytocin is a feel good hormone. It's that low hormone. And that's what ultimately causes the contractions of the milk ducts to eject the milk from the breast, right, so that rises. But if that dopamine is falling to an inappropriate level, suddenly at the same time, then you get that D-MERer response, if that makes sense. And so dopamine gets involved, because there's another hormone at play called prolactin. And prolactin is the hormone that's really responsible for making milk gets released by our pituitary gland. And dopamine has to fall in order for prolactin to rise in order for us to make more milk. So normally, dopamine just drops to a proper level, and you don't even know that it's happening. And you've got this oxytocin that's making you feel good. So everything sort of balances itself out. But if your dopamine drops too low, you get this instant sensation of just negative emotions. And then once the dopamine levels restabilized, which is very quickly, because prolactin begins to rise, then everything works out and you're fine. So it's just this very quick flow of hormones that are just flooding your brain and your body, and unfortunately, can create this response. So it's not necessarily that you should get on some kind of medication, obviously, there are medications that you know, do control dopamine levels and things like that, it's really not something that I would suggest that you look at because D-MERer is often short-lived.
So you know, there's different levels of intensity, and you know, some people it's going to be stronger than others. And I think, in many ways, there is a little bit of a mindset component here, because the more that you focus on it, the more that you really focus on the unpleasantness of that sensation during every single pumping session or breastfeeding session. And, you know, also you can absolutely have let downs in between pumping and nursing, right? How many times have you been out and about and all of a sudden, there's just smoke leaking, and that's a letdown. So you're going to experience it anytime you have a letdown. It's not just associated with pumping or nursing. It's anytime you have a letdown. So the thing about it is, though, is that it's often short lived, right? And usually sometime in the first three months postpartum during that initial like, really, hormonally intense phase of lactation is when you're going to experience the mirror, and then it starts to decrease. And so a lot of people will say, Well, three months sounds like a long time. I'm like, Yeah, but it's just momentary every single time. Is it? Is it unpleasant? Yes, absolutely. It's unpleasant, and I feel for you, but it's also manageable, right? So you can do some things, try to overcome it, I usually suggest distraction. I usually suggest, you know, maybe trying to watch like a comedy video on your phone or just, you know, put on a song you really like, maybe read a book, like just do something to distract yourself, right? Interact with your baby, all of that. Just deep breaths. There's there's a lot of different strategies that you can try. Sometimes it does continue on for much longer.
Definitely seen cases where, you know, up to a year where moms are experiencing this, but it's much more mild and subtle than it was at the very beginning. So I would say it's actually pretty rare that I find that mom's wean because of D-MERer. Again, it's already over their condition, usually they're able to just kind of manage it once they understand what's happening with their bodies, and they realize it's not something that they're doing wrong, it doesn't mean that they can't breastfeed, it doesn't affect milk production or anything like that, then they are fine. And they just continue on. And they just sort of go, Yeah, this is, you know, this is what I am dealing with. And it's, it's a medical problem, it's not an emotional problem, I'm fine. And they can understand that then they can manage it right? There are times when you have really severe D-MERer, and there can be some medication that's really helpful for you, if it's really truly interfering with everything, and you're at risk of weaning, but you don't really want to wean and all of that. So that would be something to talk to your doctor about. I will say most doctors have no idea what D-MER is.
So I will actually link this up in the show notes, the Academy of breastfeeding medicine has a directory of breastfeeding medicine doctors, and you're gonna want to work with a doctor because they're the ones that actually can prescribe something to you, if you feel like that's the route you're going to need to go. Otherwise, I would work with an IBCLC and talk about some of those natural ways that you can manage going through, you know, this condition and all of that, again, it does get better, it does get better. I've never seen a case where it gets worse. So there's that, but it does get better. And I guess I'd love to hear from from you if you've experienced D-MERer and what your personal experience has been with it. Because, again, it's also very subjective, right? Your interpretation of those sensations is really important for you to understand, I actually typically encourage journaling about that. And just what is it like to experience that? How is it affecting you? How is it affecting breastfeeding? Is it worse when you're nursing of the breast versus pumping? Why do you think that is? All that kind of stuff? Those are good questions to ask yourself, right. And you know, you may be you may find that you have encountered these sensations elsewhere in your life, you can have similar feelings to what's experienced during D-MERer with other medical causes, typically hormone related, so it can be kind of like a PMS type of a symptom. Right. And you won't be experiencing this yet if you're of childbearing years. But there are some women that also report so like if you if you have demerit currently, or you've ever experienced in the past, you might be more predisposed to experiencing a similar sensation, right before you get a hot flash during menopause. For instance, it can also be, you know, a sudden reaction, if nipple play or stimulation is involved in, you know, your sexual relationships. So that may also trigger some demerit, like feelings as well. Sometimes it can also be something that you experience along with orgasm. And so if you've had a sudden shift of mood for the negative, and a situation where you should generally be feeling the positive, hormonally, you may be predisposed to D-MERer. Now, that doesn't mean that you should never breastfeed or anything like that, but just something to be aware of. And so these are questions that like, you know, as an IBCLC, we would be asking you if you are a patient, you know, have you ever experienced any sudden shifts in mood, very noticeable sudden shifts in mood with any other parts of the reproductive process. So whether it's your period, if it's, you know, again, we won't have patients going through menopause, because you won't be having babies probably. But these other situations, those are, those are also situations where we see it happen. I will also clarify something here. And, you know, this is just a brief little trigger warning if you want to skip over the next minute or so. But team error is not related to a traumatic birth. It is not something that is a PTSD response. It is not a response to past sexual abuse or assault or anything like that. So if you are feeling D-MERer in relation to a past traumatic response, it's not that that traumatic response is causing D-MERer, but you might be triggering some PTSD memories and things like that, in which case, I would definitely want to encourage you to work with a trauma therapist, to overcome that, because those PTSD memories and symptoms and things are not the cause of the D mirror, but the D mirror could potentially trigger some of those past memories. And so you would want to do whatever you can to heal that trauma. That makes sense. So yeah, just wanted to clarify that and again, just, you know, there's absolutely times to where you might say, I've never had some weird negative drop in my emotions like I've experienced with D-MERer, and that's totally fine. You may not have you may have had no predisposition. No history of any
You think similar to D-MERer, and then you had a baby, and you had a letdown, and there's just some breakdown in the way that your hormones are functioning during this time. And you know, there's no, there's also no guarantee that you'll have it with every single baby that you have, it is very likely that you will have it with subsequent babies. So that's just something to consider. So if it's really, really problematic for you, and it's very difficult for you to cope with D-MERer, and it lasts a long time or things like that, you know, that might change your plans of childbearing potentially, I do think that you should know that. So that's important to understand is, well,
here's where we get into, you know, we just don't know enough scientifically, right? So we know that this is a dopamine mediated response that's happening. But we don't know why some moms will experience this and others will not. So we don't know if there's something nutritionally that you could do to prevent this or correct this. We don't know if it's just, you know, some something really off in hormonal activity, and there's just some sort of hormone treatment that maybe could balance this out for you. It doesn't, you know, tell us whether or not you have some sort of mutation in terms of genes, dopamine receptors, all of that. It doesn't tell us necessarily if you're predisposed to other mood disorders, or, you know, other neurological things as well. So we really don't know. And that's the unfortunate part is, you know, it's kind of a mystery, right, we can tell you sort of why it's happening, the mechanism of action, we can't really tell you how to correct it, though, there is no known treatment, other than sometimes you might be a candidate for medication. But all medications have side effects, right. And so a lot of moms are going, huh, I don't know, if I want to like, go ahead and mess with my neurotransmitters, especially if this is going to be like a short term thing. This is not a lifelong condition or anything like that, for most people. So you know, that's just something to consider as well. But I do want to say that, if you have D-MERer it is very likely to just mess with your head where you're going, but I want to breastfeed, I just have this sudden sensation of just sadness of just really feeling down, it's a really depressive feeling. Most of the time, the way it's described, it's very much like someone just feels like there's just this weight on them. And they just like, Oh, I just I don't want to do anything right now. I feel horrible. I just, uh, you know, it's just, it's intense. It's like this rush, it can be very overwhelming, because you're just, you're just going along about your day. And all of a sudden, it's like, whoa, whoa, what's happening? Right? It can be just kind of, you know, the uncomfortable like, pit in your stomach type of feeling, and, and all of that. And I want to tell you that there's nothing wrong with you. It's not that you dislike breastfeeding, it's not going to create any negative experience for your baby. So I also want to clarify that too. Sometimes that's a question is, you know, is this affecting my baby? Now on a physiological level, in terms of what's in your milk? There's no, you know, hormones that are going into your milk that are creating the same sensation for your baby? No, do babies pick up on our emotions? Yeah, for sure. Absolutely, they do. But thankfully, D-MERer is pretty short lived. Like I said, at most, it's really going to just last a few minutes. Sometimes it's just, you know, 30 seconds. Right? And so it's, it's fairly easy to develop some coping strategies, you kind of have to find what works for you. You know, so that could be some of the suggestions already mentioned, it could be something like tapping, right? It could be, you know, just singing a little song in your head until it passes, whatever. So the rest of the time that you're nursing is an enjoyable experience, and you're experiencing normal breastfeeding, like you would if you didn't have to bear with pumping, you know, it, I would say that the only thing that I see that really tends to be
kind of the biggest risk with D-MERer is weaning early, not meeting your breastfeeding goals, because it's just so unpleasant for you, you just don't feel like you can carry on. And I understand that. And I want to tell you that if weaning is right for you, and D-MERer is really making it impossible for you to breastfeed, then you should you should honor that. Absolutely. You know, our brains get wired for certain things. And if every time you have a letdown, you have this wave and flood of negative emotions and feelings. You're actually kind of changing the wiring in your brain to create a negative association with breastfeeding or pumping. And that is then a physiological response that has led to a psychological response. It's, it's kind of like Pavlov's dogs, right? So remember the story of ringing the bell, and they come for the food, right and even ringing the bell and there's no food, they still come for the food. So every time you have a letdown,
out no matter what you're having a negative response to it, eventually, you're kind of going to train your yourself away from breastfeeding, if it is that bad if it is that much of a deterrent. And so I want to tell you that it's important to honor your body, it's important to honor your needs. And if you're really just not feeling right about this, you know, it's something that I would encourage you to listen to, and discuss with your healthcare providers. Because, you know, it's important, I think, to talk about it, you should absolutely let your general practitioner your OB, as well. And if you're working with an IBCLC, let them know about D-MERer, I would really encourage you to do this, especially with your primary care physician or general practitioner, as well as your OB, because this there's neurotransmitters and hormones at play. And these might be considerations for things later on in life for you that might help put together a part of the puzzle. So if you've got this documented, and part of your medical history, this can maybe help you make sense of things as you're going through menopause, for instance, and some of the symptoms you're experiencing there. And it can help inform your treatment. Likewise, if you ever, if you've ever been on any kind of medication, for mood disorders, or anything like that, you would want to inform your psychiatrist or a prescriber of this condition as well. Because there are medications out there that affect dopamine levels in the brain. And if yours are dropping in an abnormal way in response to prolactin, and oxytocin and things, then you would want that provider to know that so that they can help choose the right medication for you. In fact, if anybody has been out there and taken some, you know, medications for depression, or anxiety or other mood disorders, you might know that there's genetic testing available to see which medication might work best for you. I don't know if there's any value in that genetic testing to tell us anything about D-MERer, I don't know, that'd be a great study to do, because we already have the test available. I just don't know, it's just not common enough, I think it's hard to actually get a decent sample size of mothers with D-MERer, they're certainly not going to be all in one location. So no, just something to think about other things that I would suggest in order to try to help because we really don't have treatments for Team error and what have you. And I don't want to say like, oh, sucks to be you, like, just deal with it. No, that's not what I'm asking. But I would really encourage you to talk to someone who can understand this de bear experience, you know, connect with other mothers with Demerol, I'm sure there's probably some Facebook groups and things like that, where you could seek out some care. I know, inside the nurture Collective, we have a really supportive community. And if you join, this is something that we can support you with, and other mothers in the group are so welcoming, and so supportive and love, just having that discussion of experiences. So I would really encourage you to join that and share with us in there and let us support you, just doing self care, right? Things like you know, remembering to breathe deeply. And slowly, I would make sure that you're taking a really good multivitamin, you know, probiotics can actually be really helpful for, you know, not just your gut health, but also your neurological health. So there's absolutely some probiotics out there that might be helpful to you. I don't know any specific strains necessarily, but something to look into focus on your breastfeeding goals, right? Maybe you want to set some shorter term goals for yourself, like, hey, you know what, I just want to see if I can get through this next week. Or, you know, if demerits, usually most intense in the first three months, let's see if I can get to a little past three months. And if it's better, I'll keep going. If it's not, maybe I'll you know, reconsider weaning, right, you know, take take, make sure you're getting enough electrolytes. Electrolytes are really important for neurotransmitter balance, they're also really important for milk production, and just your overall general health. So I would focus on things like that and anything else that your, you know, health care providers might be recommending to you, since they know you specifically, you know, distraction techniques, I think really, honestly, make it better. Not that you want to not focus on your baby when you're nursing them. But in those moments where you're experiencing D-MERer, just those distraction techniques. You know, a lot of people love to ask, are there things that can make it worse? Yeah, I absolutely think so. I think that focusing on the sensation and how horrible it is, can generally make things worse. I think if you don't understand what D-MERer is and how it works, that can make it worse. I think if you're not taking good care of yourself, and you don't have a good support system in place, or you're alone, you don't have a community you don't have anyone to talk to about this. That absolutely makes it worse. Sometimes. If you're around a lot of people that can make it worse if you get easily overstimulated and things like that, that can make it worse. Stress. Stress can make it worse. If you're going too long between pumping sessions or feeding sessions. That's also another thing because you're let down will be more intense
And so therefore the D-MERer sensation will be more intense. So feeding your baby on demand pumping frequently, those sorts of things will make it easier for you. You may also want to consider using something like a silicone breast pump like a haka, for instance, where your letdown response won't be as strong necessarily as a double electric pump. It just depends, right? If you are getting your menstrual cycle back, sometimes that can compound it and make it worse during those times. It just depends, you know, for you, I would ask you just to check in with yourself. And notice if anything else makes it worse, if you didn't eat enough food today, you're not well hydrated. Did you drink too much coffee, are there other medications you're taking that you've noticed have made it worse. So just those types of things, I would just honestly ask you to check in with yourself and all of that, I'm also going to give you an incredible resource.
There is a website out there devoted entirely to this topic. And I believe they've even written a book now. So I the person who runs the website, D-MERer.org, it's D hyphen, m e r.org. That's linked up in the show notes for you as well. But I would really encourage you to utilize that website to just you know, read over a lot of the things that I already mentioned. I believe they've got, you know, a book, Facebook group, just you know, a blog, all kinds of resources there for you. I think that reading about it, understand that you're not alone, just looking into you know, things that are working for other mothers and things that are not working for them, how they continued to breastfeed, despite having Demerol all of that those kinds of stories can really inspire you, they can really resonate with you. And they can do a lot to increase your understanding. So I usually send people to that website, if they're experiencing it no matter you know, what they want to do about if they're like, Yeah, I'm totally fine breastfeeding, they have my support. I'm like, you know, still, definitely check out this website.
Because, you know, it's basically the most valid source on the topic that I've been able to find. And I appreciate whoever has put it together, because it's a really important resource for for moms. So, yeah, I would just say, you know, dysphoric milk ejection reflex, is it unpleasant? Yeah, absolutely. Is it forever? No, not for most people? Is it really difficult most of the time? Yes, it is. And if this is something you're experiencing, you're not alone. If you've heard this episode, and you're like, you know, I definitely don't have Demerol. But I do have a lot of these negative feelings that I've you know, you that I've mentioned today, I would encourage you to reach out to a mental health therapist, reach out to your doctor talk about that, if you're having some negative feelings, we don't want to ignore those just because it's not D-MER. If you're having some other negative feelings, if you're having any other kind of negative physiological response to breastfeeding, definitely reach out to your health care team reach out to an IBCLC. You know, we can get you connected to the right people, right. And we want to make sure that you're getting treatment for that as well.
You don't have to have D-MER to get help with something, you can absolutely be experiencing some other negative emotions, and you still deserve and need help with those things. So anyway, thank you so much for listening. I hope you found this episode helpful. I wish there was more that I could say on this topic. But I feel like that pretty much covers what we know as lactation consultants and what we know about the condition, I really truly think that because we don't have a lot of you know, science and studies done on specifically this topic, let alone breastfeeding, that your best source of information on D-MER is going to come from other moms who are also experiencing or have experienced D-MER. So get connected to other moms, that's going to help you out a ton. They'll be the ones to understand moms who have not experienced this are probably going to have a harder time understanding, especially if you don't have you know, an established community relationship with them. Just going on to some random online forum, not our nurture collective but like you know, some other forums out there probably isn't going to result in much help. So if you are looking for some more supportive community, we support anybody who is breastfeeding or lactating over at the nurture collective and you can join us at the nurture collective.co/subscribe And that's linked up in the show notes too. So thank you so much for listening, and I will see you on the next episode.